The following is an excerpt of a conversation I had with a young earth creationist from about two years ago. This was soon after being falsely accused of positions I hold to and being called a heretic and non-Christian. In this conversation I’m actually called a poor witness to Christ because of my views. I’ve changed the name of the other student for confidentiality. I know it may be difficult to have the full context but you should be able to pick up the jist of it as you read along. Enjoy!
Jack, I appreciate that you feel I am a learned individual, but do you understand how seriously offensive your unsubstantiated accusations are? (My name is not Maxwell).
QUOTE:
“First is an apology, I misinterpreted and claimed you believed in evolution (which is in fact heresy saying God is not the creator of the universe) when there is no evidence you actually. No you’re right, I with this new evidence it is not a dividing line between believer and non believer.”
I’m not an evolutionist, but theistic evolution does not deny God as creator of the universe. You claim that there is no evidence for evolution. I believe there is evidence for evolution and to totally dismiss it would be unwarranted. You may not like their evidence, or believe the evidence is wrong, but you cannot simply dismiss it as “no evidence.”
QUOTE:
“But you said ” The passage only depicts death coming to man because of sin, not to all life. “< /span> when referring to Romans 5:12. Of course he only mentions man since animals are not the object of salvation so there is no need to say all life. Unfortunately, scripture describes a different story Gen 3 ” So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, ”Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals!, also 3 verses later, “Cursed is the ground because of you”. I will also use Paul to rebut in Rom 8:22 “For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.” The whole earth is cursed and from Genesis it says that it is from sin.”
There are two ways of interpreting this. Nowhere in Genesis 3 is there an indication of plant life or animal life that is affected by the fall. Paul states that death comes to all men because of sin. Animals and plants cannot sin and do not face the consequences of sin. Even in the passages you cite there is no indication of death as a result. Romans 8 is descriptive of the second law of thermodynamics, that the universe is subject to decay. If the laws of physics changed due to the fall we should be able to see the change. However, we do not observe a change in physics anywhere in the universe (that would have any real effects). For this change in physics, there would be a violation of God’s very covenant with the established laws of nature (cf. Jer. 33.25).
Secondly, the prominent philosopher and mathematician, William Dembski, proposes an interesting position in his newest book The End of Christianity. Dembski advocates a retroactive efficacy of sin being introduced in to the world. Just as salvation is retroactively efficacious, God knew that sin would enter the world and that he preordered the world with the effect of sin for purposes of physical consistency throughout the universe to express the extreme gravity of sin. Either interpretation is plausible.
QUOTE:
“You used many fancy terms for my claims which impressed me of your knowledge of the use of the English language but you contradicted yourself when you said well [Jeremy] said it but I am assuming you believe it ” We do not believe in Christ because we believe in the Bible; we believe in the Bible because we believe in Christ.” Do you believe the words Christ spoke were inerrant? Because your system goes against Mark 10:6 when Jesus said “At the beginning of creation He made them male and female”. Also said ” I would also like to add that the validity of the Bible is not essential to the Gospel message “< /span> That’s not a good witness to an unbelieving world to say that what we believe does not have to be valid in terms of truth. That is what’s at stake here, truth.”
This is incredibly offensive in accusing me of being a poor witness for Christ. This is nothing short of an ad hominem attack. You haven’t refuted anything with respects to the reasoning process; merely you state that I’m a poor witness. 1) Nowhere have I ever denied the truth of Scripture (which makes your accusation unwarranted). And 2) if you find my argument to fail please show me which premise is invalid and the error in my reasoning to show that it is unsound. This five-premise syllogism (and one conclusion) avoids circular reasoning in the inerrancy and inspiration of the Scriptures. With regards to Mk. 10.6, I’m not quite sure why you included that verse. Many theologians don’t believe that verse has anything to do with the timing of creation because no matter how you interpret it, Adam and Eve were created at the end of creation; therefore, many theologians believe Jesus is referring to the beginning of the creation of marriage.
QUOTE:
“Please rebut, refute as you wish but this will be my last post on the subject. Looking forward to more posts for you but I believe that YEC has both the scientific evidence and the Bible on its side! This is a non- essential issue to saving faith of Jesus Christ but I have seen and heard many that once they do not take the literal interpretation of Gen that it seeps into the rest of scripture. I’m sure this is a drop in the bucket compared to the conversations you have had around campus! Wish I was there! Great info and research Max see you next week!”
In the discussion board on scientific evidence for YEC, we can discuss scientific issues, which fall horribly short of a reflection of the record of nature in my opinion. I don’t discuss the issue of creation on campus for this exact reason. Young earth creationists surround me and I don’t want to cause a problem because I know that some people will accuse me of heresy and being a poor witness to Christ. I thought that perhaps in an academic setting that could have been avoided.
January 31, 2012 at 18:57
I am an old-earth creationist, and while no one in my home church holds this against me, I seem to be the only there (we are a very small congregation, RPCNA). I recently read Dembski’s book and, while I don’t agree with all that he says, I did find it very intriguing. I always assumed that the “death” of Rom 5:12 was spiritual death, as only man is a “living creature” created in the image of God.
January 31, 2012 at 19:02
Thanks for commenting, James. What’s interesting is that I did a review on Barnes and Noble of the book and I’m going to be posting it tomorrow. I’d appreciate it if you could leave feedback on my critique tomorrow.
January 31, 2012 at 19:29
Hey Max, I teach theology, philosophy, and ethics at a Christian high school in the South. I’m an OEC (progressive), but I’m very hesitant to teach that explicitly to my students, because I know that parents will form a mob outside my door. I’d be branded a liberal. I understand your predicament. When it comes to creation and anthropology, I present all the views (theistic evolution, OEC, and YEC). The more observant students can probably pick up on my subtle cues that I hold a form of the OEC view.
Unfortunately, the “culture war” has turned an honest theological discussion into a political fight. sad, really.
By the way, was this originally an online text discussion you had? Why is the other guy’s grammar so bad?
-Charlie
January 31, 2012 at 19:40
Thanks for commenting, Charlie. This was an online course I took on Creation Studies. A mandated course at Liberty University (which was horrible at just presenting the non-YEC views… straw men). I feel your pain. I lecture here at the university and I need to keep quite on this too. Those who know me best know my position (or if they find this blog!). This took place in a discussion forum. My grammar may be off in places but I don’t really have an excuse for that lol. Have you ever had students come talk to you on the side about it?
January 31, 2012 at 19:53
I have not had students come to me on the side, but I have had some very insightful students pick up on the real issues of hermeneutics during class discussion. I have great students. It’s the parents and some faculty that I worry about. In much of the conservative south, the word “liberal” gets thrown around carelessly. Thinking equals an open door to heresy.
January 31, 2012 at 20:13
By the way, I do consider myself to be a conservative and an inerrantist.
January 31, 2012 at 21:11
I’m a theistic evolutionist living in a community of YEC’s. While your responses Max were impeccable I do feel a lot of sympathy with the young Christian you were talking to. No that long ago I too was in that position and threats to a world view they you have believed all your life are very frightening. It is to be expected that many people will lash out in the only way they know and often that will become personal.
Personally I feel angry at the ‘church’ for setting me up for these situations without the training to know what to do. While in the end it is futile to blame some nebulous entity called “the church” we need to highlight the errors of fundamentalist thought and provide a clear path forward Christianity.
September 28, 2012 at 09:59
Is it possible to believe in Young Earth Creationism (YEC) because of the evidence?
I personally have spend a great number of years studying the sciences with a heavy emphasis on information science but it has come to my attention that there a number of interesting reasons to believe in young earth creationism.
http://www.youngearth.com
I believe the bible is rather specific about the age of certain things and we cannot ignore it. Try a genealogical scale from Adam to Christ. Adam was made on the 6th day…
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June 19, 2012 at 10:22